• To shuck or not to shuck...

    From Digital Man@VERT to All on Sunday, December 03, 2023 15:14:58
    I was looking to add some terabytes to my workstation's "cold" storage. I already have 8 terabytes of very fast NVMe-SSD and a slow (SMR) internal 8TB hard disk, as well as some USB external drives and network attached drives. Why the need for so much storage? 4K video editing and all kinds of video hoarding.

    During Black Friday/Cyber Monday deals, I found a good deal on an external Seagate 14TB USB drive at Costco: $149. Dollars per terabyte, hard to beat that price.

    The disk inside this external drive enclosure is just a standard Seagate Exos or IronWolf Pro NAS class-drive CMR hard drive (which separately, sell for more than, sometimes double, the external drive). Reportedly, this price difference is because the warranty on the bare drive is longer than when sold as part of the external drive.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41JwxULVdAs

    My first instinct/plan was to "shuck" the drive and install it inside my workstation (there's room and cabling and power to support it), but now I'm having second thoughts: USB 3.0 is 5Gbps while SATA 3 is 6Gbps. Is that potential 20% gain in performance something I need for this drive? Not especially. Some say that removing the drive, which usually damages the USB enclosure, may void its warranty. Others say it does not. Shucking cheaper external drives as replacement drives in a NAS (where USB isn't an option) is a fairly popular thing to do, but I'm not really sure about the advantage for workstation use. It is another box on the flower, another USB cable and port used, and its own power adapter. But what is one more in mess under and beside my desk?

    What are you experiences with external USB drives? Have you shucked them and used the bare drive in SATA NAS or workstations?
    --
    digital man (rob)

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANTIR to Digital Man on Sunday, December 03, 2023 19:33:38
    Re: To shuck or not to shuck...
    By: Digital Man to All on Sun Dec 03 2023 03:14 pm


    What are you experiences with external USB drives? Have you shucked them and > --
    digital man (rob)

    Main reason to extract the drive from the case is reliability instead of performance gains, IMO.

    Many cheap cases or encased drives have cheap USB controlers that will die on you, or their USB connectors will give in, at the worst possible time.

    If you don't want the drive to be portable (so that files can be moved from a place to another without the need of a network) and you have a drive bay in thecomputer which is free, then extracting the drive from the case is the obvious
    choice, specially if you can extract it without damaging the case, IMO.

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANTIR to Arelor on Sunday, December 03, 2023 21:36:00
    Arelor wrote to Digital Man <=-

    Re: To shuck or not to shuck...
    By: Digital Man to All on Sun Dec 03 2023 03:14 pm

    What are you experiences with external USB drives? Have you shucked them and

    Main reason to extract the drive from the case is reliability
    instead of performance gains, IMO.

    Many cheap cases or encased drives have cheap USB controlers that
    will die on you, or their USB connectors will give in, at the
    worst possible time.

    If you don't want the drive to be portable (so that files can be
    moved from a place to another without the need of a network) and
    you have a drive bay in thecomputer which is free, then
    extracting the drive from the case is the obvious choice,
    specially if you can extract it without damaging the case, IMO.

    I agree with this post.

    Another point, that I have observed personally, is that I've had "too
    many" external devices connected to USB ports, which has caused intermittent/flaky operation on some devices. I firmly believe that was
    cause by over-taxing the power-handling (supply) ability of the USB controller(s) to provide. In other words, just because you have 4-6 USB
    ports doesn't mean the system can adequately power that many external
    devices all at the same time, in a reliable manner.



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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Digital Man on Monday, December 04, 2023 07:16:24
    Re: To shuck or not to shuck...
    By: Digital Man to All on Sun Dec 03 2023 03:14 pm

    During Black Friday/Cyber Monday deals, I found a good deal on an external Seagate 14TB USB drive at Costco: $149. Dollars per terabyte, hard to beat that price.

    The disk inside this external drive enclosure is just a standard Seagate Exos or IronWolf Pro NAS class-drive CMR hard drive (which separately, sell for more than, sometimes double, the external drive). Reportedly, this price difference is because the warranty on the bare drive is longer than when sold as part of the external drive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41JwxULVdAs

    My first instinct/plan was to "shuck" the drive and install it inside my workstation (there's room and cabling and power to support it), but now I'm having second thoughts: USB 3.0 is 5Gbps while SATA 3 is 6Gbps. Is that potential 20% gain in performance something I need for this drive? Not especially. Some say that removing the drive, which usually damages the USB enclosure, may void its warranty. Others say it does not. Shucking cheaper external drives as replacement drives in a NAS (where USB isn't an option) is a fairly popular thing to do, but I'm not really sure about the advantage for workstation use. It is another box on the flower, another USB cable and port used, and its own power adapter. But what is one more in mess under and beside my desk?


    you should get a drobo clone like i have. i don't have to crack my computer open anymore to add drives. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=mediasonic+probox&crid=H46NK3BF99JS&sprefix=mediasonic+probo%2Caps%2C101&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
    look up mediasonic probox or look at their other products.


    What are you experiences with external USB drives? Have you shucked them and used the bare drive in SATA NAS or workstations?

    yeah i've done that. i've actually done that years back when an external seagate was cheaper than an internal drive.

    But look up the failure rates for current drives. get the most reliable one. ---
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  • From Nopants@VERT/CITBBS to Digital Man on Monday, December 04, 2023 12:10:00
    Re: To shuck or not to shuck.
    By: Digital Man to All on Sun Dec 03 2023 03:14 pm

    What are you experiences with external USB drives?

    I've had luck with hanging off alot of external SSD drives but not so much spinning disks. I think you get alot more reliability sticking a spinning disk in a sturdy chasis.


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  • From Lodinsetki@VERT/REALITY to Nopants on Friday, January 19, 2024 08:30:11
    Re: To shuck or not to shuck.
    By: Nopants to Digital Man on Mon Dec 04 2023 12:10 pm

    Agree with last statement, also depends what sotrage for,
    games of newer, can be better on SSD, some even good USB STICK.
    but a good quilty spin drive. works great, have had few SSD die.
    but the old spinner still spins. :)
    but some games needing faster respounse, can play better on SSD.
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  • From Lodinsetki@VERT/REALITY to Digital Man on Friday, January 19, 2024 08:38:40
    Re: To shuck or not to shuck.
    By: Nopants to Digital Man on Mon Dec 04 2023 12:10 pm

    Agree with last staement, but depending what storage used for.
    depending on game, SSD can be better, or even a good USB stick.
    but a GOOD quality Spinner has done me good.
    {have had Many SSD die} But the spinner still spins.
    Reason for some games, (newer mainly) is due to tranfer speed.
    high pace shooter something like that takes high laod, and reponse need. Moderatio Est Figmentum
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  • From Nopants@VERT/CITBBS to Lodinsetki on Saturday, January 20, 2024 09:22:00
    Re: To shuck or not to shuck.
    By: Lodinsetki to Digital Man on Fri Jan 19 2024 08:38 am

    {have had Many SSD die} But the spinner still spins.

    I've had really good luck with SSDs. The one I killed was holding virtual machines, so likely very high i/o. But, it did take awhile. SSDs I have used for storage have been good to me. Like you say, it depends on the use case.


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  • From Weatherman@VERT/TLCBBS to Nopants on Saturday, January 27, 2024 02:14:00
    Nopants wrote to Lodinsetki <=-

    Re: To shuck or not to shuck.
    By: Lodinsetki to Digital Man on Fri Jan 19 2024 08:38 am

    {have had Many SSD die} But the spinner still spins.

    I've had really good luck with SSDs. The one I killed was holding
    virtual machines, so likely very high i/o. But, it did take awhile.
    SSDs I have used for storage have been good to me. Like you say, it depends on the use case.

    SSDs are great for OS drives but any use scenario with heavy I/O operations will eventually hit the write/rewrite limit on SSD cells. In my work environment OS drives are SSDs and storage drives are spinning drives. I think as we move more toward more energy efficiency we'll see SSDs used as storage devices more often. With SLC drives now capable of up to 1,000,000 rewrites to each cell the reliability of SSDs is getting closer to that of platter drives. Long gone are the days of staged ESDI startup sequences where you can hear each drive individually start spinning and see the BIOS advise you as to which drive has reached operational RPMs.....



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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Weatherman on Saturday, January 27, 2024 15:57:15
    Re: To shuck or not to shuck.
    By: Weatherman to Nopants on Sat Jan 27 2024 02:14 am

    SSDs are great for OS drives but any use scenario with heavy I/O operations will eventually hit the write/rewrite limit on SSD cells. In my work environment OS drives are SSDs and storage drives are spinning drives.

    Doesn't an OS write to its drive quite a lot? I thought modern OSes typically write quite a bit in log files, swap files (if necessary), etc.. I would have thought an OS drive would get more I/O usage than a drive used for storage.

    Nightfox

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  • From fusion@VERT/CFBBS to Nightfox on Sunday, January 28, 2024 01:20:00
    On 27 Jan 2024, Nightfox said the following...

    SSDs are great for OS drives but any use scenario with heavy I/O operations will eventually hit the write/rewrite limit on SSD cells. my work environment OS drives are SSDs and storage drives are spinnin drives.

    Doesn't an OS write to its drive quite a lot? I thought modern OSes typically write quite a bit in log files, swap files (if necessary),
    etc.. I would have thought an OS drive would get more I/O usage than a drive used for storage.

    both the OS and the device are aware of disk wear nowadays. last i checked my drive's SMART data, it was fairly low to the point of being uninteresting.. having had the drives for quite a long time.

    most VPS come with SSD storage nowadays and people abuse the heck out of those without causing problems :)

    this might not apply to the cheapest unreputable stuff though.

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  • From Weatherman@VERT/TLCBBS to Nightfox on Monday, February 05, 2024 01:47:00
    Nightfox wrote to Weatherman <=-

    Re: To shuck or not to shuck.
    By: Weatherman to Nopants on Sat Jan 27 2024 02:14 am

    SSDs are great for OS drives but any use scenario with heavy I/O operations will eventually hit the write/rewrite limit on SSD cells. In my work environment OS drives are SSDs and storage drives are spinning drives.

    Doesn't an OS write to its drive quite a lot? I thought modern OSes typically write quite a bit in log files, swap files (if necessary),
    etc.. I would have thought an OS drive would get more I/O usage than a drive used for storage.

    Nightfox

    In general you are correct, however in the environment I work in the storage drives see up to several million write/rewrite operations a day. Beyond that, we're looking at arrays with as few as 12 storage disks per node and as many as 60 with up to 16 nodes per rack. With the difference between SSD and spinning drive costs, it adds up pretty quick when you look at the difference in cost per terabyte. Spinning drives are just cheaper, especially when you're looking at petabytes per rack. It's just a lot cheaper to install a 960 GB SSD for OS, another 480 GB SSD for read cache and then fill up the storage slots with as many 8, 10, or 12 TB spinning drives as the customer specifies.

    We DO have a model that is all SSD and it's the latest and greatest so it may indicate the direction in which the product is going, but to tell the truth, that model faces several operational challenges that the spinning drives do not.

    Anyway, all that is designed by people who are supposedly a lot smarter than me (at least they get paid like they are). All I do is try to keep the damned things running when the system admins are barely capable of putting their shoes on the right feet in the morning.



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